Here two young Muslim women are expressing their views on today’s Islam.
Hanna Khan (former Momeen): says: March 3, 2017 at 2:16 am
/“ very few of them follow this Wahhabism”/.
Not surprised to find how a Europe-settled Muslim underestimates the reach of Wahabi cult. The disastrous Wahabi tsunami has already taken over Pakistan, Bangladesh and India. Muslims in general raze to rubble temples, gurudwaras, churches et al but Wahabi Muslims sprint for a Heaven ticket by bombing Sufi shrines, Shia and Ahmedi mosques too. Wahabism is extremely busy in the process of eliminating Sufism and Ahmedi Islam from the entire subcontinent and has been highly successful in its efforts.
/”So both things are needed: india and the west definitely need to educate themselves on Islam”/
The balancing act, again!
To say all non-Muslim nations should learn about Islam connotes that all faiths are equally problematic.
NO.
* Christians, Hindus, and Jews don’t bring down embassies and indulge in brutal violence all over the world when their Gods or Prophets are targeted in movies, articles or cartoons!
*Non-Muslims don’t make a hellhole of their own lands in the name of faith, enter in millions to Islamic nations, beg and scream for asylum while not giving an inch of theirs to others.
*Christians, Hindus, and Jews- once the percentage shoots up don’t begin to demand separate homeland; today Rohingya Muslims’ problem hits the headlines while the mainstream media fails to highlight that the menace began long after the Muslims’ chorus for a separate state knocked Burma. What percentage of Muslim population do Thailand and Philippines have? Even there, Muslims are demanding separate state!
*Non-Muslims don’t settle in Islamic lands, get citizenship, enjoy equal rights, build their worshipping places in large numbers and clamour that only there God is true and their religious law should be implemented.
To equate Islamic inferno with others is equating cancer and common cold. Unless Islamic leadership undertakes sweeping reforms by eradicating all the StoneAge era practices, lets Muslims to live amicably with other faiths and most importantly, Islamic nations open their doors to other religions and let them flourish in their lands- there is no scope for Muslims to become a morally-strong, peaceful and benign community. -Momeen
Rabia says: March 3, 2017 at 5:45 am
You are right, living in Europe has sheltered me and Muslims like me from the cancerous evil that is wahabism but not all sunnis believe in that, even in india/Pakistan I know that no matter what the maulvis may preach, individuals will use their own mind and question. Many will become sheep and follow blindly – but I hope not for too long.
I’m still trying to be an optimist… change will come, Momeen. Don’t give up on us. I don’t know if you still
Consider yourself Muslim or not, I understand the latter part of what you wrote above dominates your thinking, but why not be part of the change so many people worldwide are trying to bring? There are Muslims doing great work in india and abroad. Instead of just criticizing the current state of muslim, why not do something about it?
I am trying my best to do what I can in my limited time- hence me writing my book.
But I agree with you on the widespread reach of Wahhabism : I see this trend overtaking not just south Asian countries but also former secular/secular minded Societies with majority Muslim populations. Just don’t forget to include the role of colonialism and foreign interference & projects in having countries that follow “moderate islam” when you mention why Muslims are increasingly becoming the way they are – You may already know who created the Taliban and why, but if you don’t then I strongly encourage you to learn.
You said: “Unless Islamic leadership undertakes sweeping reforms by eradicating all the StoneAge era practices, lets Muslims to live amicably with other faiths and most importantly, Islamic nations open their doors to other religions and let them flourish in their lands- there is no scope for Muslims to become a morally-strong, peaceful and benign community.” – this is why I said in one of my earliest posts on this website that Islam today (according to me) is the best and the worst religion, it’s STILL practiced As per 21st century norms because our leadership everywhere needs to condemn Stone Age practices and eliminate the radical elements drawing so many people to commit to a senseless Jihad that the majority of Muslims condemn because, again, they don’t know what jihad is/needs to be in today’s context; have you ever heard of the Hadith where Muhammad (saw) said after the last war between Muslims and Meccans that “today our physical (war,fighting) jihad ends, the bigger jihad – the struggle we will have against our own nafs (soul) begins” – meaning you need to fight the evil/temptation in your own heart and that is the jihad you are supposed to wage now. But what do some Muslims do instead? You see all too well on tv. Pathetic…
I am amazed that so many Muslims are calling for their separate countries while living in non-Muslim
Nations because Shariah law says to “respect the law of the land you live in” – it surprised me to see a small group of people in the UK asking to implement shariah law in a part of London where they live in majority (they were campaigning for that a few years ago).
I just don’t understand why we as the majority of Muslims cannot see what’s right and what’s wrong. I respect anyone who wants to live under shariah law – it’s their life and their chhoice- but don’t go trying to force this on others, especially when you are born, raised & live in a secular state. Go to shariah run countries if you are so fond of that. -Rabia
Admin says:
Dear Momeen and Rabia,
It is honor of InterfaithShaadi that intellectuals like you two are contributing. You write exceptionally well and express superbly. Rabia is already a writer and we wont surprise if Momeen is also some high placed lady (again we assume for her to be a lady!). Best wishes to you both.
Rabin said “why we as the majority of Muslims cannot see what’s right and what’s wrong,” is it they don’t see or they don’t want to see? One thing we don’t agree to you is you point all issues on “Unless Islamic leadership undertakes sweeping reforms….” We believe it is not the leadership to be blamed but silent Muslim majority supportive Muslims are the issue. Let us give you a few examples:
1) Donald Trump may be religious fanatic but majority Christians are out protesting against him and in support of Muslims. What moderate Christians have to gain from Muslims?
2) Narendra Modi may wish to impose RSS ideologies but majority moderate Hindus will not let him. Why Muslims do not reciprocate #1 and #2 in Muslim majority countries?
3) Hindus had untouchability issue. Starting from Gandhi till today, so many reforms got into practice to eradicate class system. Likewise, why moderate Muslims are not reciprocating to remove talaak and polygamy? Is that because moderates see value in those practices?
4) When Taslima Nasrin was terrorized for expressing herself, why not a single Muslim majority protest was made on street to support her?
5) When a Christian mayor of Jakarta is unduly marginalized, why millions (even 100) did not came in support of him?
6) When Malaysia change marriage laws some 30 years before, not a single protest against government came from moderate majority Muslims, why?
7) When Rabia writes a book, she will go under pseudo name to protect herself. Why fear? Who know many other Muslim authors will be doing the same. Why moderates don’t have guts?
8) All Muslims goes to the West, get into marriages with non-Muslims (45%), and convert non-Muslims (including Rabia did the same). Why moderate Western educated Muslims don’t see conversion for marriage as a wrong practice? Why not tolerate the spouse as you found him/her?
Why fanatic have more voice in Islam while moderates are silent? Why Jainism or Buddhism has not such problem? Is that something to do with Koranic teachings?
Christians killed millions during their crusades but now they got rid of bad elements into them. Likewise, Hindus at mass are progressive. We believe Islam is some hundreds years behind in reforming. We hope majority moderates start taking the blame for not reforming Islam rather than pointing to their leaders. -Admin
View videos: Interfaith Marriage with Equality, All you want to know about the Hindu-Muslim Marriage, Sharia: Hindu-Muslim Marriages,
Also read: Hindu-Muslim marriages, Hindu-Muslim lovers’ experiences, Koran on Hindus?, Love-Jihad, Don’t fake-convert, Polygamy and talaak, Akansha unwillingly converted to Nusrat, Hindu girl-Muslim boy, Idols, pluralism, SRK-can you do it?, Zakir Naik, Christian-Hindu marriages, Sikh-Muslim marriages, Malaysia in love, Marriage laws.
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To admin:
/“Unless Islamic leadership undertakes sweeping reforms….” We believe it is not the leadership to be blamed but silent Muslim majority supportive Muslims are the issue/
Please note that any faith which doesn’t purge itself would end up only as a cult. And Saudi Arabia converted the faith into a cult, long back. Its petrodollars has helped it to throttle the one and a half billion Muslims further into its fold. Unless Saudi releases its parasitical clutches, there is no hope that Mulsim population will ever be able to break the iron–cocoon that’s suffocating the followers and strangulating the non–believers.
Moderate Muslim? Well, that’s a myth. These so-called moderates will join readily the Palestinian and Arabian causes but will ever fight for Kafir’s rights and causes? Clutch of Islamic leadership is so Powerful!!!
Momeen, either you are one of those people who have become too cynical and nit-pick words from others’ comments to make you own counter-point, or you actually don’t understand my point in what I wrote earlier.
Giving you benefit of the doubt, I’m gonna clarify a few things, though something tells me I am wasting my time.
A) your last paragraph says “your insistence on shariah is comical” – what is comical is that you would think I’m actually supporting shariah law after the criticism I gave against it! When I wrote “shariah law says to respect the law of the land you live in”, it was to point to other muslims who may be in favour of shariah law that if they are indeed “true followers of Islam” advocating shariah, then they need to learn what it actually preaches.
Shariah today in 21st century (what you called “unadulterated shariah implementation” is mor REGRESSIVE than it as in 17th century – I gave this example in another post (don’t remember what the topic was) where a woman in 17th century Syria won th right to a divorce by a qadi who, using shariah law, determined that she was deserved the divorce because her husband could not satisfy her sexually – this is unthinkable in any shariah court today as it’s all about stoning people (and other things we consider inhumanity”.
Many believing muslims – religious or moderate – believe that their countries should be governed by secularism rather than an Islamist government: even Ayatollah Khomeini’s nephew (or grandson, don’t remember 100%) gave s public statement about it a few months ago. Why did people go out and protest against the Muslim Brotherhood a few years ago? Were they not “Muslim” too? Of course they were… but we as muslims know the danger posed by Islamist political movements so many of us don’t want anything to do with it.
Your implying that I am somehow supporting shariah law is a very ridiculous assumption. I grew up in a secular country with a belief that its the best way of governance to be fair to all and I cannot get in board & even remotely support any shariah law unless & until shariah law catches up with 21st century (and I know that this won’t happen in our lifetime so I have no delusions there…)
B) “victimhood song of foreign interference & colonialism” – really sis/bro??? You sound like a smart person but yet you belittle such a big part of what messed up and shaped today’s burning Middle East and Afghanistan? It isn’t a victimhood song when you have MULTIPLE examples like Afghanistan, Iran, increasingly even countries like Turkey falling into a chaos – a mess partially created by the very people who created taliban, and fed countless others like them to serve their own agenda. It is a shame that you are dismissing this as “usual song of…” – it’s a shame you do not realize just how much this impacts what we see as terrorism today.
What happens to Pakistani Hindus and Kashmiris pundits happened because of lack of support from muslims in Pakistan for minority rights & islamist groups in Kashmir forcing pundits into displacement from their own land – both condemnable acts no doubt. The muslims I know from Pakistan and India do what they can to fight for their rights – but how much can they do when they are in th minority and not in positions of power like being in politics?
Going in the streets and protesting can only do so much – we need a collective change in mentality and this will come only in decades, if at all.
Also, speaking of Islamist terror groups creating havoc worldwide across various geographies – who is their inspirational founding father?
Do you think it was the prophet Muhammad (saw)? this is the accusation you will see over and over again from all Islam/Muslim haters this forum, who call him all sorts of horrible names.
Was he the founder of terrorism? Or was it perhaps a man practicing black magic who led a gang of assasins?
Have you ever heard of Hassan Sabbah? Read about him online and see how the myth of the “72 virgins” and “going to heaven” came into existence – his cult & their evil gave inspiration to the word we use in English today as “assasin” – the spiritual forefathers of all terrorists today.
I am not going to defend senseless things perpetrated in the name of Islam, and I do not wish to make any excuses for the silence of muslims when it comes tothings like minority rights – perhaps it is their lack of empathy, perhaps they don’t want to get involved, perhaps we are just not prioritizing the issue.
Moderate Muslim is a myth according to you? So what are we, me and people like me? How do you label us?
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason these moderates you criticize joined causes like the Palestinian cause or whatever Arab cause you meant is because it impacts them personally? Millions of Palestinians are uprooted & displaced from their homeland, you expect them to think about India/Pakistan instead??
If there as a fire in your own backyard, would you rush to put out the neighbor’s fire first? Are you really that selfless? I don’t know anyone that is.
I can’t speak on behalf of others but I personally support human rights, and justice, no matter what religious affiliation a person has. Muslims have forgotten that this is what their religion asks them to do if they are true believers. Don’t want to get preach but see the Quran and you will see – in Islam and the Quran it repeatedly says to be in the side of justice even if it’s against yourselves or your own family.
Once, a Meccan stole something and tried to blame it on a Jew – and a verse was revealed to The Prophet to address this issue, and the Jew was vindicated. So we are supposed to be on the side of justice if we can ever aim to be good muslims, and that’s precisely what you are trying to do to “hold a mirror to your correligionists.”
May I just add that if you criticize your religion as if you are an outsider, without knowledge about its history & details regarding how it started off as a progressive force of change, those Muslim you are trying to influence or show a mirror to won’t take you seriously. To bring about change, in any religion, that change has to come from within the community and religion in order to be effective.
Do you think anyone in today’s conservative Muslim community will take you and me and our criticism seriously if we come with our secular discussion points and simply label others as regressive bad uneducated fools?
We will do more harm then good as a) we will alienate them and be caste out and b) nobody will take us seriously to begin with.
So if we are talking about cleaning dirty laundry, we need to use the right detergent and read the instructions carefully before attempting to do so ???
A much more effective approach – in my humble opinion – is to educate yourself on Islamic theology and history and then be able to give people around you examples to show why so many things we do today are wrong (Salafism, Muslim brotherhood and Wahhabism is NOT Islamic theology, these are political agenda-driven political-religious movements that were all born in21st century)
The Muslim community neeeds you, because you live amongst the muslims who need lots of guidance. Sad to hear about Tarek Ka Fatwa show host. May Allah protect all innocent human life and clean out and eliminate evil people from the ranks of our religious lesders. And may Muslims start reading and questioning their leaders more actively.
Amen.
Dear Rabia,
Whatever thoughts I’m placing here, it’s only for arguments– please see them only as clash of opinions; I know you are a staunch Muslim but who is very much open to reasoning. If only the majority of population were to be like you, Islam would have been a progressive and peaceful faith!
I’m starting the discussion with the request as not to take the arguments personally.
• I agree to both the points: cynical– after hearing the horrendous news about women and children being subjected to such unimaginable cruelty on a daily basis and no Muslim organization even launches a token protest while they have all the energy to set the world ablaze for a criticism, I’ve lost hope that Muslims would ever become a peaceful and morally–strong community. And your second opinion that I had not understood your point of view is also perfectly right: I misinterpreted that you are advocating Sharia.
• I stand firmly with the ‘victimhood card’: I NEVER SAID MUSLIMS HAVE NEVER BEEN VICTIMS. My argument is there are whole lot of communities who were brutalized by Muslims– do these people become terrorists and rapists? So when a foreign intelligence agency instigates– it knows that the Muslim population is faith–intoxicated and would go to any extent of savagery for the carrot called Heaven. Additionally, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Yemen, Turkey, Somalia, Sudan et al are in chaos, primarily due to their hate philosophy. A look into the conduct of Muslims vs Others: Islamist rulers invaded India, converted a bulk of the population by force, rape and dawah, bloody partition ensued and we lost our land, people and culture to a foreign cult. How many Hindus have taken up terrorism in the name of faith against Islamic nations? Zoroastrians, Christians, Jews, Yezidis, Bahais and many known and unknown communities have been butchered by Islamic thugs, how many of these people have taken up arms against Muslims, blowing them up and enslaving their women and children as sex slaves?
• Regarding Prophet: Only after coming to this site, I was enlightened by one Haque, from West Bengal that Hindu God Brahma married his own daughter Saraswati. I was shocked to learn that. But what was surprising is: in my entire life in India I had never come across a single Hindu priest even mentioning about this obnoxious episode. IMAGINE, if such an anecdote were part of Islamic beliefs, what would have happened? The imams would have howled that their religion permits that, practice would have become a norm in Gulf and in Secular nations Muslims would have been seen shouting for their ‘rights’– our leadership is such a cursed one!
• Coming to Prophet, any noble imam would have illuminated the population that whatever was practiced during those times were cultural standards and could never be carried in current era – but, well I don’t think I need to deal again on our ‘glorious’ leadership!
• Palestinian Cause: OMG! Totally on the wrong footing! I’m not against Palestinian people fighting for their cause, though I strongly condemn the Palestinian stand that Israel should be eliminated from world map! Understandably, you have not heard about Indian Muslims staging protests for Palestinians; desecrating the revered Amar Jawan Memorial for Rohingya Muslims while vandalizing temples in areas where they become a majority – how do you categorize these Muslims?
• Moderate Muslims, most of them would opt only for faith if a situation arises as faith or nation/ faith or constitution/ faith or conscience. So I firmly stand with ‘Moderate Muslim is a myth’! Only a minuscule minority will dare to step out of mullahs’ strangulating hold.
You hope that the population which has opted the devilish course as the path to Heaven will one day become morally strong and abandon the vicious track they’ve chosen, but I’m seeing the ground reality and I know they’re too enslaved to their masters and too indoctrinated from infancy that I call your hope as hallucination!
Dear Momeen,
I also apologize if I got a little emotional in my previous post, it just sounded like what you were saying weren’t general discussion points but more personal criticisms so I felt obliged to answer – and I am glad now we understand each other better and you understand my stance on Shariah and other things.
You have used a very good term when I first joined this forum: “cultenslaved” – I am going to take a guess here; what you mean is that many Muslims are enslaved due to culture around them and do not think freely because of this enslavement to their masters/imams/mullahs.
This is the main obstacle to our development: a lot of Islam today is shrouded in culture.
When we can remove the religion from the clutches of cultural practices that belong in 7th century, only then will we become the community I am “dreaming” we should be: progressive, just and fair and humanistic with respect for others.
As for hallucinating, again, you may be right. You have a much better picture from the ground so your pessimism is justified. But those who fought for their rights always started off as dreamers, so I won’t forgive myself and Allah won’t forgive me unless I at least try. One person’s efforts may not amount to much but even Martin Luther (founder of Protestantism), Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Mother Theresa, Gandhi… they were all “just one person” to begin with and look at what they managed to achieve with some support from others and consistent efforts.
It is quite ironic that I am seen as “staunch Muslim” by some and “sinner” by others who think I have committed such a big sin for marrying my husband. I shouldn’t even feel the need to justify myself and explain his current beliefs – it’s nobody’s business but for example sake I have given some details on this forum to guide others in case it helps them – but you see the irony here 🙂 Muslims like Mohammad say that “a true Muslim won’t fall in love with / marry a non Muslim” – and when I defend Islam and try to clarifying misconceptions about it I sound like a staunch Muslim 🙂
The way I see it, I am neither, I am just like many other Muslims, somewhere in the middle.
I am honestly looking forward to that promised Messiah coming back soon & ushering in a new era of peace & goodness because the mess that the world in general (and Muslim community in particular) is in right now, only divine intervention can save us!
Momeen and Rabia,
This is great discussion worth publishing some place better, or you two write your next book based on this discussion.
Rabia, you said, “a big sin for marrying my husband,” we thought you converted (by this Hindu’s own wishes!!) your husband and married a “Muslim.” Is this not true?
Honestly, this bothers us a lot (not personally on you, but the evil practice of not tolerating others in marriage but use interfaith love to proselytize). With such love-proselytization, one day, France and other surrounding countries will be Muslim majority (and followers of Sharia)! When a person like you, the most moderate and living in the West, also act this way we don’t have any doubt Islam will spread leaps and bound.
Admin, I meant that they think I committed a big sin for even considering this Hindu man as a husband, for even looking at a non-Muslim at the beginning, because we are supposed to “lower our gaze” – both men and women. I agree with the concept of modesty and these rules were introduced to reform the pervetred society of 7th century Mecca rampant with sexual abuse and rape but think people are a little out of touch with reality if they think that even the most religious person nowadays always “lowers their gaze”.
In the case of many Indian Muslims I understand your concern regarding “love jihad”, or proselytizing to be more technical. But think about it; do all Muslims who “convert” for nikkah really truly become Muslims?
So many Europeans in Germany or elsewhere marry to Muslims and yet they retain Their own religious identity. If someone marries a catholic in church, they have to be baptized, at least in name. Does it make that person a practicing Christian? I do not agree with your fear that Islam and shariah law will ever take over Europe, especially France, because it is against the fundamental values of secularism that Europeans are very proud of, especially the French. Yes, you can talk about the increasing Muslim population of France but that’s mostly because of migration from North African nations they colonized, not because of forced or voluntary conversions. There is definitely increase interest in the religion globally, with some hating it and some adopting it of their free will. But I would be skeptical of saying this increase is due to marriage, unless there is concrete statistics to suggest so.
About my husband’s beliefs, let me save that explanation for the book; if I give everything away now, nobody will
read it. Let’s just say that we both question dogmatic blind belief and I am a lot more spiritual than he is.
To Rabia:
Do you think its easy to wash my own dirty linen in public. I’m showing the mirror to my coreligionists at the cost of alienating my own people. Its extremely easy for me to turn a blind eye to the sufferings and wails of Muslims and non-Muslims and act as if everything is normal but my conscience does not allow that.
I’m fighting for the millions and millions of Muslims and nonMuslims who are the ghastly victims of Islamists’ barbarism.
/“Many will become sheep and follow blindly – but I hope not for too long.”/
Hope is different from hallucination! Sitting in Europe, which doesn’t have even two percent of the Asian Muslim population, it may be comfortable to dream. I’m living in India with 20 crores of Muslims and where Islam still is a minority; not surprisingly even now, with less than 20 percent of population we could feel the hellish heat of Islamic supremacy. Just to imagine what would happen when the percentage shoots up further is terrifying!
/“Just don’t forget to include the role of colonialism and foreign interference & projects”/
Usual victimhood song of foreign interference and colonialism:
Osama is a direct product of CIA, agreed! But the creators knew that Muslims can be made to indulge in barbarism in the name of faith. Kashmiri Pandits, Pakistani Hindus, Sikhs and Christians, minorities of the entire Islamic world are persecuted and brutalized– can any power in this world groom them to be terrorists and that too holding their own faith banner as a boost?
/ “Shariah law says to respect the law of the land you live in”/
Your insistence on Sharia is comical! All the unimaginable and horrendous tortures that Muslim and nonMuslim women and children today undergo is the direct result of unadulterated Sharia implementation. For centuries Muslims have been victims of vile and venomous indoctrination. Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, Hassan al-Banna, Muhammad Abduh– founders of Wahabism, , Muslim Brotherhood, Salafism respectively laid the devastating path for Muslims. Their leadership’s consequence– today Muslims are venom among themselves, forget about amiability with other faith–followers, gender equality, ethicality, liberality…
Thank you for these very kind words, admin: “Admin say: It is honor of InterfaithShaadi that intellectuals like you two are contributing. You write exceptionally well and express superbly. Rabia is already a writer and we wont surprise if Momeen is also some high placed lady (again we assume for her to be a lady!). Best wishes to you both.”
????????????
I dont know if I am an intellectual or not – I see myself as an ordinary Muslim girl who just hates to see her community in the mess it’s currently in. May Allah help us bring about change quicker…
It is your modesty to say “an ordinary Muslim girl.” An ordinary person is the one who barely manages his/her life. Here you are out helping the society and the world. We would say not even 1% of world population has such passion, interest and time for such nobel cause. You are on a right track, keep it up!