Kumar says: March 23, 2017 at 6:47 am
What happens if I convert for Nikaah only for namesake and continue to live as it is afterwards? Is there any legal significance of such conversions?
Rabia says: March 23, 2017 at 2:08 pm
Kumar, which country do you live in?
I don’t know about India but if you were living in the West, I don’t think any religious conversion matters in terms of living your life. People convert in church or mosque for weddings all the time and continue their lives as they wish.
In other sharia-run countries, things may be different.
Admin usually says that if someone marries by nikkah in India, then, Islamic family laws would apply to them, but in terms of living your life, I don’t think it should affect you. India is, after all, a free and secular country.
Socially, Muslims community may apply pressure for you to follow a way of life if you are living in a Muslim mohalla. –Rabia
Admin says:
Hi Kumar,
We have changed your name for your privacy.
Rabia has not answered your questions properly. As a Muslim, here she is telling only the half truth.
The main issue is exclusivism. Muslims truly believe that there is only one true religion and that is Islam. Further, Christianity’s teachings are wrong that Jesus is a Son of God. Hindus are wrong because they pray to idols. Further, it appears that Koran sections violence against unbelievers (read). In effect, a Muslim will date Hindus with a clear objective of converting him/her, not for true love. If you tell your girl friend that you will not convert, she will run away from your relationship. For her, she does not care for your true love, she wants conversion. Why will you want to marry such Love-Jihadi?
Read all we said about fake conversion here.
Conversion to Islam is a one way street. What Rabia will never tell you that Muhammad said to kill those who converts out of Islam. See how Muslim community treat who leaves Islam (view).
There are clear major legal consequences:
1) Legally you are a Muslim and cannot officially become Hindu otherwise Muslims will be after you to kill you (Bukhari 9.84.57).
2) If for some reason, she decide not to marry you after Shahadah, you are stuck with Islam.
3) If you get divorce, you MUST marry another Muslim only or convert another Hindu to marry.
4) If you get divorce after children, most probably the judge will not give you custody of children because those children are Muslims (both parents) and you may want to be a Hindu.
5) Probably you cannot inheritate any grandfathered properties because you are no longer a part of that Hindu heritage.
6) You cannot perform antim kriya (end ceremony) for your Hindu parents because you are a Muslim.
7) Lets assume you are no more here after conversion. Your parents may wish to cremate you but your wife will legally make you go in a grave. So, understand that legal implications are endless.
Read our video below. Do you have any doubt?
More information: Hindu-Muslim Marriage, Sharia, Muslim-Hindu marriages, Hindu-Muslim lovers’ experiences, Koran on Hindus? Hindu girl-Muslim boy, Marriage & Divorce laws.
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To Rabia:
Further response to your arguments on verse 2:221.
Stories of Women who Became Muslim and Left their Non-Muslim Husbands
I know that Muslim women are not allowed in Islam to marry non-Muslim men; there is a sister on a converts’ list who recently became Muslim and who was asking what to do regarding her non-Muslim husband who accepted her conversion without any problems and who also lets her educate the children the Islamic way. However, when she asked for an advice, most of us told her that the husband has to take shahada (become Muslim) or she should not remain married to him otherwise. Unfortunately, some other people don’t believe so and advised her the opposite way; that she just should remain with the husband and so on,…. I would like you to send me concrete cases at the time of the Prophet where Muslim women (sahabiyyat) would leave their non-Muslim husbands if they decided not to convert. I think those cases would be the only proof to convince the people of that list that Muslim women are not allowed to marry or remain married to non-Muslim men even though they are not against the woman’s conversion.
raise be to Allaah.
What you have said in your question about it being haraam (unlawful)for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man is correct, and there is no doubt concerning that.
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“And give not (your daughters) in marriage to Al-Mushrikoon (polytheists)till they believe” [al-Baqarah 2:221]
Al-Qurtubi said:
“ ‘And give not (your daughters) in marriage’ means, do not give Muslim women in marriage to Mushrik (pagan)men. The ummah (Muslim nation)is agreed that a Mushrik should not marry a Muslim woman because this is like putting Islam in an inferior position. (Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 3/72).
Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
“They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them” [al-Mumtahanah 60:10]
Al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
Chapter: when a mushrik or Christian woman who is married to a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule) or a harbi (non-Muslim belonging to a people who are hostile towards Islam) becomes Muslim. ‘Abd al-Waarith said, narrating from Khaalid from ‘Ikrimah from Ibn ‘Abbaas: if a Christian woman becomes Muslim shortly before her husband, she is forbidden for him… Mujaahid said: if he becomes Muslim during the ‘iddah [waiting period following divorce], then he may (re)marry her. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “They are not lawful (wives) for the disbelievers nor are the disbelievers lawful (husbands) for them” [al-Mumtahanah 60:10]. Al-Hasan and Qutaadah said concerning two Magians who became Muslim that their marriage was still valid. If one of them had become Muslim and the other had refused, the woman would have been divorced and he would no longer have any rights over her.
(Saheeh al-Bukhaari. See al-Fath, 9/421).
Examples of such women include:
Zaynab, the daughter of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). She was married to Abu’l-‘Aas ibn al-Rabee’ during the Jaahiliyyah (pre-Islamic days of ignorance) but when she became Muslim, their marriage was annulled, and she went and stayed with her father (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). When her husband became Muslim, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent her back to him.
(Narrated by al-Tirmidhi, 1143; Abu Dawood, 2240; Ibn Maajah, 2009; classed as saheeh by Imaam Ahmad, 1789. Al-Tirmidhi said, there is nothing wrong with its isnaad).
Link : https://islamqa.info/en/3408
Rabia made few arguments basing on Quran 2:221 and rightly so. When it addresses parents to not hand over their daughter to any mushrik guy, then blame is on the parents, but when did we see parents forcefully marrying their daughters with mushrik men? It`s always the daughter who chooses her mushrik bf, sometimes parents agree, sometimes they disagree with her choice.
So do you think Allah will put sin of daughter(bcoz of her choice) on parents who were against such marriage?
Allah is most merciful, if he wish he can pardon anyone for their sin, so sin committed in ignorance of verse 2:221, Allah might forgive, but after knowing verse 2:221 and knowing that ones husband is mushrik, is it not the duty of Muslim women to introduce her husband to Islam? If she really cares for her husband, and if she really believes in Islam, wouldn`t she want best for her husband, i.e Islam?
During Prophets time, women who converted to islam, they left their husband and there were no official divorce required, as soon as they converted, it was considered as divorce from their husband.
Third argument, the verse was applying to mushriks of that time, there is no indication in verse 2:221 that it is dealing with specific context of time, we donot find any hint of this from previous and next verses of 2:221. Also we clearly know the definition of Mushrik, that is associating partners with god, which is very common with hindus, today`s hindus are more mushriks than they were (say) 100 years ago, each passing decade their god increases, Sai Baba, Asharam bapu and many other local gods are there, on top of that, Cow is now the single most powerful figure in Hinduism, Shiva,ganesha,parvati,tree all are gods and these worships aren`t mentally, it`s physically, making murtis of god, which by any definition of Islam is against Islam. So anyone who is pretending that though he/she married a hindu but hindus are not musriks because i refuse to believe them so since i have violated verse 2:221 of Quran is only fooling them, if todays hindus are not mushrik, then no one in the world is mushrik.
Fourth, many muslim husbands are born muslim, but irreligious, if he is irreligious that`s okay to some extent if he has proper belief, but if he is stopping his wife from practicing islam, that means he is not a muslim anymore, he is militant atheist, so she should divorce him, no islamic qazi will reject her “khula”(divorce initiative) if she cites religious obstacle as her reason for divorce. However, just because some sisters are unfortunately married with born ex-muslims doesn`t mean my willful marriage with mushrik becomes justified. Also, I have not come across any muslim women who said her muslim(born) is stopping her from practicing islam.
You are so stuck on a book, you can’t think beyond it. Read other view here https://interfaithshaadi.org/?p=1618&cpage=1#comment-407597
Everything is in Book, US constitution, UN constitution, Indian Constitution. It`s not about book, it`s about the ideas and beliefs. Books are medium to save ideas and beliefs in written form.
Responding to Mac:
a) Mac wrote: “What you have said in your question about it being haraam (unlawful) for a Muslim woman to marry a non-Muslim man is correct, and there is no doubt concerning that.” – did you see the link where I was talking about Islamic scholars who have said it is makruh, not haraam?
You clearly disagree with these scholars, and before I met my husband I myself also thought like you, which is why I always wanted my husband to be Muslim.
Please see this, and let me know your thoughts Mac: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/junaid-jahangir/muslim-women-marriage_b_15472982.html
b) Since my husband isn’t a mushrik, the points raised by Mac in the above discussion doesn’t apply to me 🙂 I am talking about other people who are struggling with such questions in their lives, and need advice. Like I said, interfaith marriage is very difficult if you are following your own religion 100%, and everyone, in my opinion, should make life easier on themselves and marry within their own community for harmony.
c) On the question of haraam: Pork and alcohol are also clearly forbidden (as “haraaam”) in the Qur’an, and yet most Muslims I have observed and met over my years abroad, including religious Muslims who are Indian/Pakistani/Saudi and whatever else they may be, happily disobey this part of Allah’s commandments, they know it’s a sin yet they continue to do it because it’s their personal choice, too much temptation… some of them drink ocassionally, some of them love pork etc etc.
And it’s not my place or Mac’s place to judge them; they know it’s haraam and yet they continue to do it. Many of these people I know are not hypocrites, as Mac may call them, or others may call them. They know what’s wrong, but this duniya is filled with temptations and everyone struggles to do the right thing.
I also know some great Muslim ladies, hijabis and namazis, but they cannot stop gossiping about other women, spreading bad rumours and basically being not very pleasant people. Is gossiping not haraam? Are spreading rumours not haraam? Wasn’t it compared in a hadith to “eating your brother’s flesh”?
So Mac, which one of us is 100% following the Qur’an??? Are you a perfect Muslim, Mac? Is Dr Zakir Naik a perfect Muslim? He preaches well so we all assume he must be such a perfect Muslim, but my own experience has taught me that only Allah knows who is a righteous person with faith and who is a show-off. This is not a personal criticism against you or Dr Naik or any other Muslim, it’s a general statement that confirms what Allah says:
“Indeed, [O Muhammad] you do not guide whom you like but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided” (28:56) ”
I know many hijabis (personally) who also drink occasionally and have boyfriends and do not always pray 5 times a day. And if you, Mac, saw me on the street and saw that sister on the street side by side, you would immediately assume that Rabia must be the “worse” Muslim amongst these two girls because she does not wear hijab.
Is anyone today a perfect/good Muslim? Everyone is in different places in their faith journey, some haven’t even started this journey and live as agnostic/atheist, and some are now renouncing the Islamic faith because of these judgements and oppression that the community places on them. The Muslims I grew up with
Those Muslims I mentioned above who are “sinning” are also doing amazing charity work, giving a lot of money and food to the poor, and making up for whatever sins they believe they committed with prayer, repentance, umrah, fasting in Ramadan etc etc.
My point is not to say “it’s ok to marry a Mushrik because other Muslims are also not following the Qur’an properly and eating pork, alcohol etc.” – the point is that not everyone agrees with your views on what’s unacceptable sin and what’s acceptable sin – Allah can forgive whoever he wants, and it should not be up to the community to judge. You can give advice to guide, do that by all means. Just don’t assume that person X or Y knows better, only Allah knows best.
You have given advice to this convert lady to leave her husband – you want to destroy her family? Maybe the husband will accept Islam one day voluntarily, maybe he won’t… The husband doesn’t have a problem with their kids being raised Muslim, he doesn’t have a problem with her being a Muslim. This is VERY different than 7th century Arabia where Muslims were under religious persecution for their new faith. You cannot/should not compare apples and oranges because times have changed and now Islam is the fastest growing religion, many people are accepting it and in many places we are free to practice it as we wish.
FINALLY, Mac said:
“Fourth, many muslim husbands are born muslim, but irreligious, if he is irreligious that`s okay to some extent if he has proper belief, but if he is stopping his wife from practicing islam, that means he is not a muslim anymore, he is militant atheist” – The Muslims I grew up with were a mix of this, either irreligious but militantly secular in lifestyle and wouldn’t allow an Islamic faith imposed on their children, or like you said atheist/militant atheist in some cases. All come from Muslim families and have Muslim names, but do not practice and in many cases don’t believe also.
And as a reply to Mac’s “Also, I have not come across any muslim women who said her muslim(born) is stopping her from practicing islam.” – come to my country and I will introduce you to these people 🙂 You live in an Indian bubble and since Indian Muslims are more or less religious like you, you may not know that other types of Muslims also exist.
Actually I came back to this website only to let admin inform one thing, which is violence against Muslims in Gujarat. I don’t remember in which post where admin has claimed that after 2002 Gujrat riot not a single riot took place in that state, which is not true at all. I couldn’t find that post so I am posting it here.
Last week a mob of 5000 attacked a Muslim village resulting in 1 death and many more injured, with 100s of houses burnt down and a loss of worth 10 crore property. But no one will say a group of 5000 terrorists, because the word terrorist is only reserved for Muslims. Secondly, admin always writes here that Christian has become peaceful and now Muslims should follow that path as if Hindus don’t involve in violence, so admin should make India peaceful first before preaching about peace to others. Where do you find in 2017 that a mob of 5000 attacking minority village? Except so called tolerant India.
‘5,000-Strong Crowd Came With Pistols, Weapons’: A Gujarat Village, Seared http://m.ndtv.com/india-news/day-before-riot-gujarat-village-split-sarpanchs-term-for-muslim-hindu-1674486
And Christians have become peaceful only if you consider America,England,France,Russia to be countries consisting of non Christian people and Muslims are violent only if you consider Alquida, Book Haram,Daesh etc as true representation of muslims while rest of us like Mac, Muhammad,Rabia are fake Muslims.
Here is an interview by well known intellectual and an agnostic Noam Chomsky who is born Jew, so a Muslim bias wouldn’t be there in his talks like Reza Aslan.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t5uET5QoOXY
Let me know what admin and Rabia thinks about what this gentleman had said.
Good points on the interview. Yes, Bush was not something to be proud about about his war in Iraq and created mess there. Further, the West is making Assad weak, that means West is making ISIS strong. Assad has to use force to control barbaric ISIS; one should not expect Assad to give ISIS justice that is given in the West.
Tell us why “the word terrorist is only reserved for Muslims”? When there is a bombing in the west or a plane highjacking, why people don’t say it must be a Jain?
Because west is dropping more bombs in Muslim national s that too every week, while bomb blast takes place almost after 3 months in western cities, west kills more Muslims, they are not terrorists, while when a Muslim kills any western it becomes terrorist act, either both are terrorist or none, today’s Muslim youth will not accept this double standard in defining terrorism. Btw the question was asked in reference to what has happened in Gujarat, I have asked why 5000 people were called mob instead of terrorist?
Good point, don’t know. May be it will change and 5000 will be called terrorists.
If Sunnis were smart, they will accept Shia, Ahmadias and other Muslims are “TRUE” Muslims. Actually we see it as a CAST SYSTEM in Islam (one is superior over the other). The day Sunnis will learn tolerance for their own type, West will be crying! Hi mac, do you wish to revised this statement?
Sunnis donot consider Shias as TRUE Muslim, that`s a fact. Shias also donot consider sunnis as true Muslims, but it`s ALLAH in the end who will judge.
mac, do you realize that this exclusivity is making Muslims weak? If brahmins say Dalits are low cast, who suffers? Of course, Hinduism, is it not? Is this not the time to give this up such superiority?
Rabia, What is your view on this Shia/Sunni discriminations?
My personal view is that I don’t believe in or endorse any sectarianism. That’s why when you asked me a few weeks ago “Rabia, are you Sunni or Shia – please don’t say ‘I’m just Muslim'”, I didn’t know what to say because to me, whatever little knowledge I have about Sunni-Shia divide from Islamic history, I see it as more of a political divide which unfortunately spiraled out of control and because a theological divide as well.
Most Sunnis quote a Hadith where the prophet is believed to have said that after his death, the majority of his people will be rightly guided but a minority will go astray. This is always interpreted as “Shias, the minority, are wrong”. And that’s why a lot of Shia who are Ismaili, for example, follow their own community leaders and meet in their own mosque/community centers (the Ismaili one is called Jamaatkhana)
I genuinely do not want to pass judgements on anyone because some of my own relatives who are Shia firmly believe in it, and are much better (more practicing) Muslims than I am. I grew up studying and finding Sunni Islam to make more sense to me, but I will repeat that I would NEVER call any other Muslim “not Muslim”, because nobody should have the holier-than-thou attitude, and i am sorry if I do come across as that sometimes…
We may disagree on whether minorities are doing things right, what wrong practices are there in each sect, lots of debate on Ahmadis is going on in Pakistan, lots of other sects are being attacked by the Wahabi ideology. I think sometimes people need to agree to disagree and live and let live.
But one thing is certain: the more Wahhabi Islam allies itself with traditional Sunni scholarship/thought, the worse things will get for Muslims as a whole… Back in the 70s, Al Azhar university and other Sunni scholarship were more flexible on accepting Shia / Shia madhabs as an acceptable School of Thought within Islam.
Nowadays, Islamist movements are threading this coexistence of the past… and increasing attacks on Sufi shrines / Shia mosques etc. are signs of increasing intolerance and fanaticism targeted to destroy anything that goes against Wahabbism.
Taken from Wikipedia for those new to this terminology “maddhab”:
A madhhab (Arabic: مذهب maḏhab, IPA: [ˈmæðhæb], “way to act”; pl. مذاهب maḏāhib, [mæˈðaːhɪb]) is a school of thought within fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence). In the first 150 years of Islam, there were numerous madhahib, most of which have become extinct or merged with other schools. The Amman Message, which was endorsed in 2005 by prominent Islamic scholars around the world, recognized four Sunni schools (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali), two Shia schools (Ja’fari, Zaidi), the Ibadi school and the Zahiri school.[1]
I meant to write “Nowadays, Islamist movements are THREATENING this coexistence of the past…”
Rabia,
As an outsiders, we see that Islam is full of exclusivity. So in such exclusivist teachings, there will always be someone to exclude and make wars on them. Jains and Hindus are always lived side-by-side but there is no reported war or killing in the name of God.
Further, we found that Shia and Ahmadias are more open minded and tolerating Hindus and others, while Sunnis are less. We clearly see Rabia is lots more flexible in her ideologies while mac and Muhammed are not.
Middle East is burning because of Shia-Sunni issues and it will keep burning. Remember, others are taking advantage of it. It is time Sunnis (and all, including some Hindus) have to give up exclusivity if we are looking for peace.
Buddhism disappeared from India due to “peaceful and tolerating” nature of Hinduism ! 😀 Just google : how Buddhism disappeared from India
A CIA officer whose video “Listen to your enemy” went viral on Facebook and other social media platform so once made a very interesting observation she had learnt from interviewing Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives.
“you need to listen to your enemy… they said that America might think they are doing good by helping countries like Afghanistan, Iraq by interfering in their regimes, but Taliban operatives believe that the rest of the world sees them as Luke & Leia, fighting against the dark side”
I cannot endorse any act of innocent people dying anywhere, and I clearly disagree with the mentality of Taliban, Al Qawda etc. but Mac made an excellent point as an answer to your question: if the Muslims countries and people were not dying as a result of drone attacks, If ordinary Muslims did not see their lands and values as being under attack from coalition forces, Perhaps you wouldnt be seeing too many of those terrorists turning out to be from Muslim countries.
One more thing: I understand that a movement like RSS was founded as a way to defend the motherland against what hindutva supporters see as dangerous elements, diluting ancient Indian customs and religion. Hindutva sees Jainism, Sikhism etc as ok because these religions took birth in india, whereas Christianity and Islam came later. If the way that western powers interfere in Muslim countries (through their military or otherwise) was happening to India, normal Hindus would also have the same negative sentiments against these countries and perhaps RSS’s main mission would be to fight against those countries as opposed to Islam/Christianity. Maybe we would see Hindu terrorists too then…
What is known as the most peaceful religion on earth, Buddhism, has also bee used by Buddhist monks in Sri Lanka to justify violence against the Tamils during Sri Lanka’s bloody civil war. My friend did her thesis on this subject, can send you a copy if you are interested. Christianity took years anencephaly years of bloody conflict to sort itself out, Christians were fighting Christians across Europe – at that time, we called it “civil wars” and “religious wars” and it terrorism. The same Jewish fundamentalist who killed yitzhak Rabin (Israeli politician), the same Christian fundamentalists who bomb or threaten Planned Parenthod clinics, black churches, synagogues and mosques in post 9/11 America – when are we going to change our attitude and call all those “acts of terrorism” too???(it’s the media, which needs to learn and politicians need to take action, because many common people are aware of this anti-Muslim bias)
The white terrorist is always a “lone wolf”, “mentally ill”, “deranged”, “acting alone”. And the Muslim is always inspired by Islam… hypocritical approach, to say the least!
5000 people in Gujarat attacked a village causing loss of one life, many injured and property loss of worth 100 crore, the 5000 people were Hindus and victims were Muslims. You will find hardly any mainstream television media coverage on this, and few print media outlets which did publish this incident passed it off as “5000 mob” “5000 people” etc attacking a village. But, if it was reverse, you would have seen 24*7 media coverage on this, the print outlets would have come with headline likes “5000 Islamist” , “Thousand Muslim Mobs” , “5000 Islamic Fanatics” “Muslim extremist” , “Islamic terrorist attack a minority village” etc kind of headlines. And this is how a wrong perception of Muslims has been build by media controlled by non-Muslim corporate houses. Muslims are remained far far behind in media control and management, they are still naive in this field. But now day by day hypocrisy is coming out and more and more Muslim including non-Muslims are realising this hypocrisy in covering ideologically motivated violence. Similarly in Myanmar they like to call Buddhist mob instead of Buddhist terrorist.
RSS has stand against Muslims and Christians especially for Muslims for things like love jihad, not singing vande ma taram, while this isn`t a issue at all since marriage outside religion is not crime as per indian constitution, not sinigng vande mataram is not a crime either neither these are activities which risk national security, while stealing oil, dropping bombs are much much evil things than those non-issues.
This is another video which exposes how west and its so called intellectuals take dual position in israel palestine issue, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-39wOhkTIDE
Rabia, you didn`t tell your opinion on the last video link that I posted, Admin said it has good points, though he didn`t clarify whether he agrees with it or not.
Yes, you may cite one incidence here and there but here we are talking about totality of events. Other than acts by governments, Islam stands on the top of list for terrorism. There is no other religion come even close where one person (or a group) terrorizes others in name of God/religion. This is truth today and but we are hopeful it will change tomorrow.
When Saudi Arabia bombs Yemen, that may be illegal or unethical but that is not classified as terrorism. When Muhammad killed 800 Jews in year 627, it was an act of war and not terrorism (thought using Jewish wives and daughters was unpardonable act at today’s standard). Same way, what the West or Russia is doing to the Middle East is not terrorism (but yes it is wrong).
We feel main issue in the Middle East and the world is exclusivity. Sunnis feel superior to Shia and thus there will not be a peace amongst Muslims for ever. Further, all Muslims are out converting kafirs, that is because of their exclusivist mindset. Likewise, some Christians believe only baptized will be save and that is not right. Likewise, there is exclusivity and superiority among Hindu Brahmins over Sudras Hindus, and that is not right. All faiths should act to remove such exclusivity and be more pluralist. We believe interfaith marriage is a good place to learn to Share two faiths and Respect other’s belief system with Equality (50-50%). If not, religious fights will go on forever. mac, you will say equality is not possible, but we are hopeful!
//Yes, you may cite one incidence here and there but here we are talking about totality of events.//
So whatever done by others on muslims becomes “one incidence” here and there. Nice tactic to end the conversation on violence done by non-muslims, as Rabia rightly mentioned, violence by non-muslims become “lone wolf” while violence by muslims is generalized. Double Standard
//Other than acts by governments, Islam stands on the top of list for terrorism.// It means you don`t consider people dying for caste discrimination, inter caste love/marriage, violence for cow etc as terrorism? This is the problem, that we label on type of violence as terrorism while others as simply violence, from where is the absolute definition of terrorism coming? Muslims bombs an western city corner and kills 60 people is an heinous act of terrorism, christian bombing drops on Syria and taking 200 lives become “collateral damage”, while on human death counts west is killing way more people than any so called Islamic terrorist organization which btw aren`t representation of muslims either since they are not elected body but self made organisation while american govt are choosen by people, thus actions of american govt makes its people directly responsible for the crime.
//We feel main issue in the Middle East and the world is exclusivity. Sunnis feel superior to Shia and thus there will not be a peace amongst Muslims for ever.//
Sunnis and Shias are existing from more than 1400 years, but before 2003 Iraq invasion by US and western forces, there weren`t any single sectarian violence in Iraq.
Though admin is labeling these incidents as one or single act of violence here and there, but we see a pattern here like these two fresh cases:
1.Muslim man tied to tree, beaten to death for being in love with Hindu woman Apr 07, 2017
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/20-year-old-muslim-man-tied-to-tree-beaten-to-death-for-being-in-love-with-hindu-woman/story-cJF6zGNilUK4mngaMpIhNI.html
2. Pehlu Khan killed by gau rakshaks in Alwar: Silence from govt amounts to more than just dereliction of duty Apr, 06 2017
http://www.firstpost.com/india/pehlu-khan-killed-by-gau-rakshaks-in-alwar-unequivocal-condemnation-of-such-violence-is-needed-3370506.html
How interfaith marriage with equality is possible that you are helpful? One has to sacrifice, their is no other away, it`s like having a bald head and not a bald head at the same time, which is literally impossible, either you have bald head or you have not, it`s impossible to have both at the same time.
We agree that Muslims are labeled as terrorists, when 99% of Muslim are peace loving. We agree that interfaith marriage with equality is not possible if any one of two is a religious radicle. We agree, that 5000 terrorists killed one Muslim in Gujarat is wrong. Tell us what is the solution? Tell us why millions of people have been killed in name of God? Is that God at fault that She/He gave confusing messages to us? We found that atheists are equally peace loving and decent people, so what is wrong with that?
Atheists have also killed milllions of people in the name of atheism, like Stalin, Mao di zong of China(i hope i got the name correct) when he invaded tibet.
What do you mean by religious radicle?
Is a Hindu religious radical if he doesn`t eat beef?
Is a Muslim religious radical if he doesn`t drink wine/pork?
Responding to: “What Rabia will never tell you that Muhammad said to kill those who converts out of Islam. See how Muslim community treat who leaves Islam (view).”
Admin is quoting a Hadith where the Prophet Muhammad is said to have said such a thing. We all know that in Islam, the main source of knowledge is the Qur’an so if something contradicts the Quran, it cannot and should NOT be a part of the religion. It be a part of the religion. When the Quran says “there shall be no compulsion in religion”, you cannot say this Hadith is applicable.
This is where geography comes in: under countries like Iran, Pakistan and Saudi
Arabia where there are apostasy laws, you will face threats for openly leaving it.
If you don’t live in a Muslim/Shariah-run country, it’s ridiculous and paranoid to think that you will face legal consequences for Leaving Islam or any their religion. No Muslim I know would ever act like the people in that video by admin.
That’s why I said, “where do you live?” because it depends on the country.
In india, I don’t know what would happen. It’s a secular country with freedom on paper but if you find yourself amongst Deobandis & other conservative strains of society, you may be caste out from society.
Rabia, are you saying this “said: “Muhammad: Whoever changes his Islamic religion, then kill him.” (Bukhari 9.84.57)” is not trustable statement?
We get a laugh when one says there is no compulsion in Islam. We know many Muslims who tells us behind the doors that they are atheists, but no one had guts to go public. Compared to Hindus, Christians, Jains, Buddhists can convert as many times as one desires without any compulsion. Keep sugar coating but truth is different.
I am not sugar coating, I am telling you how it needs to be. Sadly, like you said, the reality in practice is different and it has to change. Apostasy laws don’t apply in the west so there, your atheist ex-Muslim friends can convert as many times as they want.
And Hindus and Christians will also face community pressure and be shunned if they leave their religion, as you see happening in conservative Christian areas in the US, Europe or even India. And don’t get me started on “ghar wapsi”.
Yes, they aren’t being killed but then how many Muslims have been killed for leaving Islam in India or any non-shariah Muslim coUntry? What you say, the Hadith you keep quoting, isn’t practiced in any Muslim country I have lived in, won’t share publicly what those countries are but they are Muslim countries (I’ll email you if you’re interested)
So yes, as a 21st century educated Muslim, I would not trust and follow this statement because it goes against basic human rights and what I believe shown clearly in the Quran. Other Sahih Bukhari hadiths are informational and educational but no Muslim I know today, including very conservative and devout ones, would accept people being killed for leaving Islam. We may be sad that our community is becoming smaller, but to each his own. My problem is when ex-Muslims go on a crusade to attack and demean Islam, and spread false propaganda against it.
Just like we expect to ben respected for our beliefs, we believe people should be free to choose theirs.
You’re probably gonna thinks we are the minority but we are a larger group than you think.
We don’t agree to this, “We may be sad that our community is becoming smaller,” actually Islam is growing leaps and bound. Love proselytization is very effective method.
Even in the West, ex-Muslims will be saying they are atheist only behind doors. Going public is something they feel is a life threat; if not in the West, but sometimes traveling via Islamic countries.
Rabia said //And Hindus and Christians will also face community pressure and be shunned if they leave their religion//
Dear Rabia, can’t say about Christians but Hindus kill those who leave their religion , not saying every Hindu, what I mean is Hindu organizations like RSS which btw is the biggest organization in India and also governs the government, funny isn’t it, that a RSS governs the Indian govt, if you follow Indian politics you will notice current ministers from BJP govt submit annual report to RSS chief Mohan Bhagvat, also India is not secular as a whole, states like Tripura , West Bengal are secular to many extent but n many States conversion from Hinduism to Islam or Christianity is an official harassment deed like in Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, Rajasthan etc which btw has much higher population than Kerala or west Bengal. Anyway coming to your comment, Hindus not only feel pressure for leaving Hinduism but also gets killed which hardly hits the mainstream media for obvious reasons thus people are misleading to believe that only Muslims are intolerant towards their apostate. Here is the news from India’s most liberal left state kerela where a n ex-hindu was killed for converting to Islam.
//This is the second murder of a Muslim man by RSS-BJP cadres in Kerala in recent times. In November 2016, eight RSS-BJP workers were arrested for the murder of Faizal, who had earlier converted from Hinduism to Islam. https://www.altnews.in/three-rss-men-arrested-murder-madrassa-instructor-kerala/?utm_content=bufferd22be&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer. //
And before anyone goes on the offensive and tries attacking me for saying “Islam is growing…because it’s the truth”, I do believe that there’s a way to God and to shanti and to happiness through other religions too. Just because I personally find my peace and answers in Islam doesn’t mean everyone else will find the same…
Religions are a way for human beings to connect with God, and I firmly believe in the fact that we all came from the same source. For some, Christianity shows the way, and for some, Hinduism does. Just became I believe in and practice my own religion does not mean I think everyone else is going to hell…. that’s why I hate these judgements we make on other people’s future. Divinity is beyond everything, beyond all religious strict lines, and what we call God is very close to each of us who want to establish and maintain a relationship with him.
But like I have said before, I do find Islam to be the one religion that answers my questions and since I see the interconnectedness of all global religions and books revealed/divinely inspired, I take an inclusive approach. Many Muslims who see Islam would agree with this too.
To quote Maulana Jalaluddin Rumi (famous poet/’Muslim/Sufi):
Come, come, whoever you are.
Wanderer, idolator, worshipper of fire, come even though you have broken your vows a thousand times,
Come, and come yet again. Ours is not a caravan of despair.
come as you are…
Who is idolator or not, is covered here and will be a chapter of our book.
Whose God is right–will be discussed extensively in our book (also read).
Difference between Rabia and mac is–one don’t believe in fake-conversion while the other wants to “Eat the Cake and Keep it too!”
We can’t wait to buy your book!
What does ‘eat the cake and keep it too ‘ means and it is for whom? Me or Rabia?
Yes, people convert to Islam for themselves after full in depth study in not only in Islam but in comparative religion but Islam haters find this fact hard to digest so they invent rhetorics like love jihad, Quran in one hand and sword in another,etc…While people from their religion continue to embrace Islam everyday like this one Trump election lead me to Islam.
http://aboutislam.net/reading-islam/my-journey-to-islam/trumps-election-led-islam/#.WN0xXsrctbs.facebook
Or like this one : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUIy4xintF0
About cake, it is for Rabia (from Wiki: It can be used to say that one cannot or should not have or want more than one deserves or is reasonable, or that one cannot or should not try to have two incompatible things. The proverb’s meaning is similar to the phrases “you can’t have it both ways” and “you can’t have the best of both worlds.”)
We clearly understood mac, that is to take Koran and Hadith’s as 100% God’s words and to be followed literally. Further, only Islam is truth and all other faiths have faults. Further, mac would be proud to convert a non-Muslim girl to Islam and make her follow 100% Islam way and 0% her own way.
Admin does not believe in following any book but will make a decision that is rational and logical at a given time. Further, don’t believe in fake-conversion just to please Allah.
Rabia is in between above two. She is not exclusivist like mac nor pluralist like Admin. She says all faiths are good and people should do good karma etc and not follow books literally (eg. Hadith or some Koranic statements). She will also go and do some Hindu rituals when with in-laws to please them. We honor all these above acts (most people do), however, she also believe in FAKE-conversion to please Allah. She is happy that her husband fake-converted for Nikaah and now it does not matter if he follows through being a Muslim.
mac, what do you think if Muslim world will accept her book “Infidel’s diary” and half pluralistic messages? We will certainly love it and even the West may buy it in large number because they will see it as a working progress in Islam.
We consider you two as intellectuals and knowledgeable. Further, we all are out to make this world little better than it was, but in our own way. Lets keep up our dialogues.
Dear Admin and Mac,
I just want to clarify one thing.
The title “An Infidel’s Diary: Memoirs of a Muslim Girl” is an oxymoron: how can you be an infidel when you are claiming to be a Muslim girl?
My point in using this word “infidel” was not to hint that the protagonist is Ann infidel – she is far far from it. She is a devout girl who believes in her own religion. But the world and especially people around her, by constantly criticizing her choices, keep labeling her and some of her friends as an infidel.
That’s why my official twitter account name, which I started a few days so, is called M_of_MuslimGirl. I just post some quotes for now but by the summer I will start posting updates about the book and updates regarding where it will be published.
To me, Sophia, my protagonist, is a Muslim girl – hence the title “memoirs of a Muslim girl”.
As for my reply to “she also believe in FAKE-conversion to please Allah” – I don’t agree with this. In fact, you will remember my exact words where I said “People do fake conversions to please their spouses families or inlaws”.
I never said “to please Allah”. I don’t endorse or advocate dishonesty, but at the same time sometimes people are stuck with difficult decisions, and it’s not my place to judge their actions or decisions – hence me saying don’t interfere if someone wants to do this, to each his own, live and let live…
You can fool human beings but You cannot fool Allah – God sees through everything, and I don’t think he will be fooled by any fake conversion. Like I said, wait for the book about the issue of whether my husband fake converted or not, this is a public forum so not everything about his private matters can be revealed here.
“She is happy that her husband fake-converted for Nikaah and now it does not matter if he follows through being a Muslim.” – again, no comment, you think it’s a fake conversion, ok… whatever you want to believe, believe. Only Allah knows best, so I don’t want to spend more time on this issue.
Rabia,
We feel bad that we are hammering you unnecessarily. We love you and truly believe you are superb a human being. Further, we believe the title your picked is superb, don’t change it. Yes, infidel for one may not be infidel for other, or you are just saying sarcastically. We wish you success for your book.
When mac and Muhammed hammer us on this site, it does not make us weak but prepare us to be correct for our book. Good friends should say negative things on face, not behind. We rather give you hard time now so you adjust your statements in the book accordingly. Probably you should include separate chapters in your book explaining you are/are-not “love-Jihadi” and “fake-converter”, because one or the other is going to raised that. Hope these discussions here will make your book strong and complete.
May be some day, mac, Rabia and Admin will write a book on Hindu-Muslim marriage!!
Hi mac,
What you have to say for Rabia’s statement on Bukhari 9.84.57, “So yes, as a 21st century educated Muslim, I would not trust and follow this statement because it goes against basic human rights.”
Is this statement by Muhammad not truth or against basic human rights?
Looking forward to Mac’s answer, but the real question to be asked should be this: is this statement really from Prophet Muhammad, and if so, what’s the guarantee of that? What’s the proof of that? Is there anyone alive today who heard the Prophet say this?
There is a science to analyzing Hadith, and determining what was strong and what was weak/untrustworthy Hadith.. and if you read about Bukhari, you will see how he went about compiling the books of Hadith that we study in Sunni or Shia Islam today.
However, as a person living in a multicultural society, and often being the minority in it as a Muslim myself, I respect people’s decision to follow what they want, just like I expect them to respect my beliefs and allow me to follow them freely. That’s what I mean by “I don’t agree with this statement”. And it does go against the Qur’ans own message of “to you your religion, to me mine”.
Admin, I just spoke to a Pakistani Sunni friend of mine who is a DEVOUT Muslim and knows a lot about Islam & Hadith, she is a practicing Muslim with hijab and also follows Islam and Hadith in her daily life.
After reading this Hadith “Muhammad said: whoever changes his islamic religion, kill him!”, I asked her what her view on this was as someone educated in Islam/Hadith, probably more educated than me.
I am quoting her reply to you:
“the Admin has misquoted the Hadith, it actually says “whoever changes his religion, kill him.” This Hadith, while being Sahih Bukhari, was never accepted and taken into the books of Hadith science as authentic/applicable and scholars did not endorse it. The problem is when any Tom, Dick and Abdullah – who himself probably doesn’t speak Arabic and possibly never even read the English version of those books of Hadith, or the scholars’ views of what should be taken and what should be left out – starts to have their own opinion on what she rights and what’s wrong. The biggest problem with Muslims today is lack of education in Islam and Hadith… people go online and read a few things and get convinced about what they should/shouldn’t be doing.”
Please quote this to other Muslims who have ever expressed any approval for this Hadith on this forum.
mac, is this Hadith wrong? Should it be removed?
Kumar,
Admin believes that anyone Muslim who is in an inter-faith relationship must be a love-jihadi, and given the amount of people who actually do this in countries like India, I don’t blame him too much. But it’s very wrong for us to judge because there are people, like myself, who have genuinely started a love relationship with non-Muslims, and have struggled with our faith and identity because of this.
As for conversion, yes: it’s very likely that your girlfriend will, at some point, as you to become Muslim or do a “nikkah” (even if it may not be a real conversion) because Islam (the traditionalist legal view) requires it.
Now for my dear friend Admin, whom I love to disagree with:
I understand you have your own views based on your experience with conservative Indian Muslims, but here’s a little more information so that you may also become more educated in what’s ACTUALLY going on in today’s Muslim world/community and the debates we’re having.
Marrying a non-Muslim for Muslim women is seen by most Muslims as “haraam” but in reality, any educated scholar of Islam will tell you that it’s actually Makruh (“Makruh”, in very basic & simplistic terms, is not as bad as “haraam”, but translates as “detestable”)
Why? Because the husband may put a condition that the Muslim wife should leave her religion and convert, see the below link where it says that “the main issue for past jurists was coercion on the Muslim woman to convert.”
Nowhere in the Qur’an does it EXPLICITLY forbid this, and just like men are allowed to marry from People of the Book, so should women be. Another reason for this is because traditionally, in male-dominated societies, the children follow the religion of their father, so when a Muslim girl marries a non-Muslim, she and her children would – according to most – be leaving Islam.
Read this link and see the view from a : http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/junaid-jahangir/muslim-women-marriage_b_15472982.html
I ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO SEE THE ABOVE LINK AND EDUCATE THEMSELVES ON WHAT ISLAM ACTUALLY SAYS ABOUT MUSLIM WOMEN MARRYING NON-MUSLIM MEN!
On “MUSLIM WOMEN MARRYING NON-MUSLIM MEN!” clarify if the non-Muslim guy has to convert. Our experience is–Muslims, guys and girls, use marriage as a tool to convert others. They don’t truly love their fiancee unless they convert. This is sad to love proselytize.
Admin, I think we’d have to double check this answer with the scholars mentioned there but my guess will be no, conversion wouldn’t be a criteria because if the guy had to convert before marrying the woman, the woman would be marrying a Muslim, wouldn’t she?
And that’s allowed and how things have been practiced for generations anyway! As in, whoever converts truly before marrying a Muslim woman, the community sees as Ok because then she is already marrying a reverted (we use this term) Muslim so nobody can argue with that.
The imam in Oxford whose article I posted already conducts interfaith marriages between Muslim women and people of the book without conversion. Yes, his views may be accepted by only a small fraction of the Muslim community for now, but just like these people in the article above, he justifies what he does by showing textual evidence (and lack of any strict prohibition on marrying non Muslims) as he says “Islam is a gender neutral religion and all rules should apply to men and women alike” His deduction is that since men are allowed to marry from
People of the Book, so should women be.
And some, like me, would question who we include in “People of the book”, so there goes another’s debate on that.
It will probably take some years but I firmly believe that these things will slowly be more accepted in the society and stop ruining girls’ lives. I still don’t encourage intermarriage for anyone as it could lead to problems but if, like me, you get along very well with your spouse, move a happy married life (touchwood) and are willing to face the occasional issues regarding one’s parents with goodwill together as a couple, you may make it work.